Intro: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to this edition of Fresh Hope for Mental Health. Our mission here at Fresh Hope for Mental Health is to empower you to live well in spite of your mental health challenge, by sharing insights through interviews, practical tools for living well, encouragement and courage for overcoming all from a Christian perspective.

And now here's your host, pastor Brad Hayes. 

Pastor Brad: Hello my friend, and welcome to this edition of Fresh Hope for Mental Health. I'm Brad Hayes, your host, and our purpose here on Fresh Hope. For mental health is to help empower you to live a faith-filled, rich, and full life in spite of having a mental health diagnosis.

And as you know, we like to interview people here. We like to talk to people who are helping people accomplish living well, and uh, so I am really privileged and happy to speak with Rob Jack Jackson. This morning and, uh, [00:01:00] or today. And, um, quite honestly, we just met, but I think we could be good buddies. I, I do think we could be good buddies.

Welcome Rob. 

Rob Jackson: Brad. Thank you. I'm so excited to meet you. Yeah. For our listeners at heard those first few moments of getting acquainted, I think they would've enjoyed it. I believe we common hearts and somewhat similar stories and a love for the Lord and serving others. 

 Pastor Brad: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny how the more people you meet along the way, the, the more you realize you really weren't alone all along.

Rob Jackson: Yeah. Not that weird. Not that different. 

 Pastor Brad: Yeah. 

Rob Jackson: I began to release some of the shame, you know? It's 

 Pastor Brad: okay. Yeah. And, um, you know, uh, Rob is a licensed counselor and, uh, he's a licensed counselor with focus on the families counseling services department as well as then you have your own private [00:02:00] practice. Is that correct?

Rob Jackson: That is correct. I've been doing all this. Different ways for more than 35 years now. I've been with Focus on the Family about four years as of this recording. 

 Pastor Brad: Great, great. And you've written a number of things or um, have been, I don't know if you wrote all of them, but digital and print materials, it sounds like the complete guide to the first five years of marriage.

Rob Jackson: Yes, that's something I was included in. I'm one of several contributors. It was produced by the counseling department of Focus on the Family. Great book. You know, sometimes I share with my couples. If you just look at the table of content and go down and check off all the problems you might identify with, that's gonna give you a good way to launch into your better marriage.

It helps you to diagnose where you are. 

 Pastor Brad: You know, um, when my wife and I had been married, maybe, oh, I think we were married five years. Um, we were at the seminary and, uh, we went [00:03:00] to adopt. Our oldest is adopted and in the process, the, the, um, oh, whoever she was, I don't know, I think it was a social worker.

She asked us if we had ever thought about divorce, and two of us looked at each other. We said no. Murder. Maybe 

Rob Jackson: I was waiting for the punchline. 

 Pastor Brad: Yeah, yeah. But um, yeah, so we could have used that book for sure. Um, the Savvy's Bride Answer Guide and the Smart Grooms Answer Guide and. That's great, Rob. I'm, I'm glad to have you, but that's not what we're gonna talk about today, is it?

Rob Jackson: It's not. 

 Pastor Brad: So talk to me about loneliness and men and this growing epidemic of loneliness in men. 

Rob Jackson: I think it's actually becoming startling, and some of this has to do with the human condition, right? [00:04:00] Loneliness is just a part of being a human being. We could even say as natural. We can relate that back to the fall of humanity, to break with God, to break with each other, et cetera.

And I think modernity, modern times has not helped this. I mean, the fact that we're meeting virtually today, you know, it's okay, but it's not like face to face. Uh, we have been through the pandemic. And no matter where you were on, I'm sick or I'm he or I'm gonna vax or I'm not, no matter where you were, that changed our lives.

 Pastor Brad: Yep. 

Rob Jackson: And really caused a lot of. Up, up, up, you know, RET and upheaval is my word, I guess, and unrest. There's been a lot in, uh, society. A lot of our churches are just now sort of coming back online and, uh, beginning to reach out. Some of the support groups went all virtual instead of face-to-face. And then men, you know, we always, uh, [00:05:00] are having to provide for ourselves, but if we're married, providing.

Maybe not solely by ourselves, but providing for our wives and our children and perhaps our aging parents. And it just becomes a lot. 

 Pastor Brad: Yep. 

Rob Jackson: And loneliness can be one of the, uh, the consequences. 

 Pastor Brad: As soon as I could go back to the gym, I went to the gym, not because I exercise well, I do the steam and the sauna and the jacuzzi.

Rob Jackson: Oh, good stuff. 

 Pastor Brad: Yeah, I belonged to one gym for years that had all the exercise equipment was on the. Top side and the snack bar and every, the jacuzzi, sauna, and hot tub, were all on the lower level. I had never gone to the top level after years of being a member. 

Rob Jackson: See, you're a man. And for my own heart, I mean, I knew we could be friends.

 Pastor Brad: Well, I, and so what I. What I wanted to get back to the gym was to see the few guys that I know that aren't parishioners. They're, they're just friends, you know? [00:06:00] Yeah. And I couldn't wait. And then when I got back, they weren't, some of them weren't there for a long time, you know? And, um, I, yeah, were lonely. I, I really believe that.

And, but we tend to do that anyway as men, don't. We 

Rob Jackson: do. I think it's really a part of our nature. You know, as we have adapted as men, we've, in some cases older men, like myself, you know, we grew up watching John Wayne. 

 Pastor Brad: Mm-hmm. 

Rob Jackson: You know, that was kind of the, the, the persona, you know, and then younger men, you know, they have their own icons perhaps.

But what we all have in common, regardless of age, is how men are often degraded in media. You know, and we just really have a struggle to know what, what is a man supposed to look like? 

 Pastor Brad: Yep. 

Rob Jackson: Uh, be like, and all kinds of voices swirling around about that and. [00:07:00] I find that many of us, like, you know, like myself, I'm an introvert by nature, and when I was suffering panic disorder and some formative years of my life, meeting and greeting was a part of that social anxiety.

And so it's not something that I just inherently do well. In fact, I used to avoid it quite a lot and I don't think you have to have a mental health diagnosis to identify with being shy or introverted. Or just not particularly skilled at meeting and greeting. 

 Pastor Brad: Yes, exactly. One of the things I find interesting about guys today, um, you know, and my experience is, uh, you know, outside of the church, uh, because it's different, really kind of outside of the church.

From my perspective in the church, I'm the pastor. When there's a man around or whatever we're, they're relating to me as a pastor and I don't always appreciate that. [00:08:00] Sometimes I just wanna be their buddy, you know, just their friend. Mm-hmm. But I have found also with the younger men, I. They have the earbuds in, they aren't really talking to each other.

And in fact, I have, I have been in the same room with younger guys and said hi or whatever, and they don't even acknowledge me because there's so much listening. They've got the earbuds in and they just are in that, uh, in a zone in a world that's inside their head. But that's kind of how I went through my years as a young man too.

We just. We're like silos out in the, on the farm? 

Rob Jackson: I think so. And I mean the, the curiosity, the curious thing for me is that lonelier we are, the more we're going to be drawn to things that help us to check out. And so, you know, for example, there's a statistic here that says young adults. Are twice as likely to be lonelier than seniors.

So this is for the 18 to 24 year age [00:09:00] group, you know, and so you think about if I'm lonely and don't know how to get that legitimate need for community met first with God, and then within myself and toward others. If I don't know what that looks like, loneliness is the outcome, and then I'm gonna start trying to medicate it.

With various distractions and I mean, I love technology and you know, got the phone here and all this stuff, but it has become a substitute, you know, it is virtual, it is not reality. 

 Pastor Brad: Yeah. Oh yeah. You know, I have never played a game online or uh, digital game at all, never until last December. I was going through kind of like a.

I would call it very light depression, but I was just trying to avoid work. Doing work. Yeah. 

Rob Jackson: Yeah. 

 Pastor Brad: And I didn't feel like working, I felt like ah, right. And so I checked out and I started, um, playing a game called Royal Match [00:10:00] and I have been known to spend a few dollars to, to win at that game. And I'm sad to report that.

I had never played it, and now I am at level 2,768 in the game. It's something that I do when I can't find anything on TV or whatever, but I'm actually zoning out when I do it. 

Rob Jackson: Yeah, well, and that's part of the design. You know, the developers who have the skill sets to develop games and so forth, learn how to hack the brain.

So we get dopamine rewards for these kinds of things. Now, in fairness, everything changes. Brain chemistry, brain structure, and brain function. 

 Pastor Brad: Yep. 

Rob Jackson: The good, the bad, the indifferent, the ugly, everything. Mm-hmm. The old, the new, et cetera. But technology and especially, you know, something delivered by a screen that we can hold or we can see it is powerful.

[00:11:00] And so we're not really getting addicted to the game or to the pornography or whatever. We're getting addicted to that neurochemistry right here between my ears. That's what we're getting addicted to. These other things are just delivery systems. 

 Pastor Brad: Yeah, 

Rob Jackson: like a needle for heroin. 

 Pastor Brad: Exactly. If you don't know how to separate from that and start connecting more, you can be really, it can be problematic with all of life.

So how, what are some practical ways or practical tools that men can grow deeper relationships or start connecting and start building some lasting relationships? 

Rob Jackson: Right. I love the question because in my own private practice. That's come out of my own life experience. I try to help people proactively plan for peace with God, self and others.

And so let's start first. If you are a Christian by profession and if you identify with Christ and [00:12:00] you're lonely, okay, I got you. Been there. Might be there later this afternoon. No judgment. That usually means as a Christian, you're not practicing the presence of Christ that we can experience through the Holy Spirit.

So you know you're alone and yet with God, internally through the spirit, loneliness becomes more of an option. And so I know Christians Christian audience would expect a Christian counselor to say, be in the Bible. Be praying, be meditating about what you're reading. Of course. But that's, that's something I would emphasize.

Intro: Yep. 

Rob Jackson: You know, I don't want to, to minimize it or move past it. That's gonna be crucial because until you're content with God and yourself, you're not fit company for anybody. 

 Pastor Brad: Right. What makes you have then. The ability to relate to others is because you've related to the Lord and you've got healing.

That's right. And you've got some passion and compassion and all [00:13:00] those kinds. Yeah, for sure. For sure. 

Rob Jackson: It's like this perfect love, cast out fear. So I'm not saying I never have fear again, and I'm not saying that I'm, you know, the most social person in the room. I have to work at it. It's not natural. Uh, I think my panic disorder delayed me socially.

Uh, for a number of years, even when it was gone and I was no longer diagnosed, I was now recovering from having been sick 

 Pastor Brad: for 

Rob Jackson: seven years. Yeah. Behind. But I am resonating with, okay, if I am enjoying God, but I'm not approaching that person from a place of fear. 

 Pastor Brad: Yeah. 

Rob Jackson: I'm, I'm not living from a place of fear.

You know, it's more of a place of faith. And it's more, more joy. And so it, it is just a different way of living. 

 Pastor Brad: Yeah. 

Rob Jackson: You know it inward and one is outward. Right. 

 Pastor Brad: Exactly. And going back to what you said just [00:14:00] a little bit ago, I, I think it's really important to know that this is the point to start, if you're lonely, to start by having and recognizing that there is this ongoing.

Presence that Christ has with us through his Holy Spirit, that we may be alone, but we don't have to be lonely. 

Rob Jackson: Right. You know, I'm amazed, I think about Jesus and his ascension and the disciples and the anxiety in the moment. You know, can you imagine how scared those guys were? Oh 

 Pastor Brad: gosh. 

Rob Jackson: And you know, Jesus, you know, is speaking to them better than I go.

Let me go. I'm gonna send the Holy Spirit. I'm gonna send the comforter. Not the critic. 

 Pastor Brad: Yep. 

Rob Jackson: The comforter. 

 Pastor Brad: Yep. 

Rob Jackson: And so I really think it's crucial that when we identify with Christ, because the Father loves us, let us also go on to allow the Holy Spirit to embrace us. And [00:15:00] at that point, peace with God is far more likely.

And then when you're not enjoying God, you can ask yourself. What's up with that? Why am I not enjoying God? Because he is altogether wonderful. Something has shifted in me. Am I not, uh, psychologically healthy? Am I not practicing good self care? 

 Pastor Brad: Mm-hmm. 

Rob Jackson: If I have been diagnosed and need medication, am I taking it responsibly?

If I carry a diagnosis and I need to be with a counselor, do I have an appointment? You know, I have no qualms admitting I've got. 62 years of experience on this earth. I was diagnosable by the time I was in the eighth grade. I got diagnosed when I was in college. I'm in counseling today. There are times that I still choose to go in absolutely and, and get help, and I am just grateful to have a Christian counselor who, [00:16:00] who, who assist me.

So when you think about peace with yourself. Are there old wounds? You know, is there lack of forgiveness? Are there old scripts you know that you hear playing in your head about yourself, your purpose, other people, the meaning of life, the nature of man, woman, family, children, et cetera, and then having peace with God at the level of spirit.

Peace with yourself at the level of your mind, renewing your mind. Then we look at the body. What am I doing with my physical body? Am I stewarding this body well? If this is a temple of the Holy Spirit, is it in ruin? 

 Pastor Brad: Mine's in ruin. But I'm just telling you straight up, huh? 

Rob Jackson: Well, maybe, but keep in mind, thankfully, wellness is not measured just on one dimension.

Right? It's not measured only on the scale. 

 Pastor Brad: Mm-hmm. 

Rob Jackson: You know, so many other ways. And so [00:17:00] am I practicing a good sleep routine. Am I eating okay most of the time? Not obsessing over it. 

 Pastor Brad: Right? 

Rob Jackson: Uh, walking, you know, I just finished a, a half an hour walk this morning. Can't always do it this time of day, but today I could.

So am I really investing in my physical health? Am I planning for peace with my body? 

 Pastor Brad: Yep. 

Rob Jackson: And then after peace with God, peace was self peace in my body. How about peace toward other people? Am I reaching out to people, allowing them also to reach back in? 

 Pastor Brad: Yeah. I think the piece that we have with one another is so stirred up in this country.

I mean, it's just like, it's too easy to get into conversations where you either are a hundred percent in. Agreement with the other person about political things or how things should be, or you're completely at odds with them [00:18:00] and you either kind of debate and argue or you just don't talk. And it's like, we don't even know how to relate to each other, just about grandkids and life.

And, uh, you know, it's, it, it's difficult in today's it is. 

Rob Jackson: I don't think I've ever seen a time as divided as this feels. Yeah. So in my lifetime feels very divided. And they're not only divided as Americans, but we get divided across our churches. We're divided as Christians. And then the thing I've been looking at too, is how we are dividing ourselves by age cohorts.

So here I'm a boomer and I'm finding that our age cohort. Or one of the new kinds of prejudice, you know, if someone's not in our age cohort, we can't understand them. We don't even wanna relate to them. We've already prejudged them. Yeah. 

 Pastor Brad: It's why [00:19:00] bother? 

Rob Jackson: Why bother? And the body of Christ knows nothing of that kind of 

 Pastor Brad: Absolutely.

Rob Jackson: Stuff that's been put onto us through the American and Western culture. 

 Pastor Brad: Yes. 

Rob Jackson: And so it's, it's not being conformed. To this world, but it's being transformed. Transformed by the renew of mind. You're my brother or my sister, no matter what age you are. 

 Pastor Brad: Yep. 

Rob Jackson: That no matter what region of the country you're from.

Um, you know, you're my brother or sister of humanity and humanity, no matter who you voted for or whether you voted at all. 

 Pastor Brad: Yeah. 

Rob Jackson: Or not, you know, 

 Pastor Brad: it's, it's the renewing of the mind where it all starts. And I have said to people over and over and over that one of the hardest things I have in my life is sometimes it's so hard letting God love me.

It's so hard crawling up on his lap and receiving love. I [00:20:00] mean, it's just sometimes I so desperately need it, but it's hard to receive it. And because there's so many things that block that, and I know that if I don't, don't start there. Relating to others is gonna be difficult. 

Rob Jackson: Yeah. Well, Brad, I think you've really put your finger on the pulse right there.

I think because of the fall, we inherently think Ill of God, we think less of God. We doubt his tender mercies. You know, we can go to the scripture and read verses and with a negativity, we filter those negatively and we miss the verses. Like in Zephaniah, you know, God will quiet us with his love. You know He will.

He will sing over us. Loudly. And that just, to me, that's just humorous always. Yeah. You know, God is just exuberant about us and he's singing over us loudly and [00:21:00] you know, actually loving us much like the father of the prodigal son whose son has now returned party time. You know? So if we could ever understand that we are far more loved than we have ever yet imagined.

 Pastor Brad: Yeah. We can't 

Rob Jackson: imagine. No, we can't. We can't. And I don't even know in heaven if we will fully grasp how much we've been loved. 

 Pastor Brad: Yeah. You know? Um, I used to think that I began to understand how God loved us when we had children. Okay. 

Rob Jackson: Yeah. Okay. 

 Pastor Brad: But it wasn't until we had grandchildren that I realized that, woo, that's even better.

Rob Jackson: Yeah. You know, we're grandparents now. We've got two that are three and under, and I've always said, if I knew it was this good, I'd have started there first. We'd have our grandparents first. 

 Pastor Brad: Yeah, 

Rob Jackson: fantastic. But I think you're right. I mean, God imprint us with himself. [00:22:00] Our humanity, and we have these roles now, husbands and wives.

We can thank Christ and the church, and we have our children and we can thank the father and people who were born again into his family. And then we have these grandchildren. 

 Pastor Brad: Oh man. 

Rob Jackson: You know, and so there's just so much there. And even though this is a very difficult age. And some of us have carried or carry mental health diagnoses, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

There is so much. That is right. 

 Pastor Brad: Oh yeah. And you know, um, maybe it's because I've been a pastor for so many years, it's like going on 39 years now. And I always tell people, for instance. It really is when you think that what you're going through is so horrible. At least for me, I would never use this as a way to get somebody to see their situation, but for me, I've seen so many people suffer [00:23:00] so much worse things or so many more difficult things in their lives than I have in mind.

I don't, I I, I look at it and say, God, I'm, I'm, I'm grateful that you got me through what I went through. Right. But I'm also grateful that I didn't have to go through other things or haven't yet. Mm-hmm. Um, because there so much. Right. Even in our pain, there's right things. 

Rob Jackson: That's why, and you know, even for the common grace, God extends toward all humanity.

Things have never gotten as bad as they could. If he was not there as a restraining influence, so with my own sins or mistakes or whatever, he's never allowed that to be as bad as it could have been. And then he uses tough things in good ways for his 

 Pastor Brad: purpose. Yeah. I believe that he's allowed just enough tough in my life knowing what [00:24:00] balance of tough I needed in order to change.

'cause I, I'm a person, you can tell me what I need to do for myself and I ain't gonna listen. I, I, I'll listen. I'll be polite, but I'm not gonna do it until there's pain. And the pain of either doing it is less than the pain of staying where I'm at. That's about the only way I change For real. Yeah. Unless it's something I really wanna do, you know?

Rob Jackson: Well see. Yeah. You right there. On the core of humanity, right at the cusp, we are motivated out of pain now in the natural world. And so I think about how suffering really. One sense is not an option. It's whether do you suffer well or suffer poorly. 

 Pastor Brad: There's some kind of saying about suffering is not optional, but being miserable.

It is. Or something like that. Yeah. Is that kind of where you're headed? There 

Rob Jackson: it is. That's, that's exactly where I'm headed. I mean, like to be lonely, male [00:25:00] or female, young or old is suffering. That's not making the bones about it. It is suffering and sometimes you're lonelier more than others and sometimes it comes through the.

Harsh loss of a spouse or a significant other or breakup or divorce or death or something of that sort. But your suffering can be made better if, if you go to the Holy Spirit with that. But if you don't go back to him and you go out into your five senses, sight, say untouched, mal, or taste, trying to find something that will medicate that suffering.

Now we're suffering worse. 

 Pastor Brad: Yep. I always tell people, if you don't deal with your pain, your pain will deal with you. 

Rob Jackson: I like that. Uh, yeah, that's so true. 

 Pastor Brad: So I believe that probably this one question. We can wrap up the whole thing through our conversation, but [00:26:00] I suspect that there will be people who see the topic of this podcast and, um, they're not gonna be the men.

They're gonna be the wives or the girlfriends, the significant others, or the moms. And they're gonna say, oh, I wish he'd listen to this, or I wish he could. Know that, you know, blah, blah, blah. What would you say to a woman, a female who knows that somebody they love is very lonely? One of the men that they really love is very lonely.

How can they encourage them? How can they build them up? How, how might they introduce, uh, help to them or whatever? 

Rob Jackson: Yeah. I think that's a great question because women are more fluent emotionally than we guys if it's a language and they [00:27:00] observe and interact generally better than we do. And I think part of the challenge we have is men.

There's been a time in my life where I would've associated the feeling of lonely as something feminine, like there was a time. That I thought, okay, it's all right to be, uh, angry. Men can be angry, but real men can be angrier. 

 Pastor Brad: Yep. 

Rob Jackson: Uh, and it is okay to be, you know, excited at a, at a ball game or whatever it is your thing is.

But that's pretty much it. And loneliness is a human emotion. You know, it is not inherently male or female, but if men are not being raised to be in touch with feelings. In a healthy, balanced way. And I would say it this way, lonely boys grow up to be lonely men. So you know, women, you can talk to your [00:28:00] guys about, you know, you, you got a lot to offer other people, you know, you could be someone's best friend or you could be someone's mentor or you could be someone's sidekick.

But I see you're not taking the time. Is there something I can do so that you and I can carve out time for you to go find that social outlet that will help you with your loneliness? 

 Pastor Brad: That's great. That's a great idea because I find that men have a hunger for the Lord sometimes, or a loneliness even for him, but they don't really realize how to.

Go about it. And then they feel worse because their wife or their significant other seems closer to the Lord and they feel they, they self condemn, they self judge and all this stuff. Yeah. That's, we 

Rob Jackson: need to learn to be mindful, you know, that that word is tossed around a lot and sometimes it moves toward the, the new agey kinds of stuff, but [00:29:00] mindfulness where the Christian is just being really aware of where God and I are at all times.

Are we connected? You know, and then how is the Holy Spirit leading me to, to reach out or leading me to receive Right. You know, reciprocating. 

 Pastor Brad: Yep. 

Rob Jackson: You know, and that that pain that you carry, that we might call loneliness or anger or disgust or indifference, listen to that and go talk to the Holy Spirit about it.

Why am I hearing that in me? What can I do about it? 

 Pastor Brad: So what would you say to a man who might be listening to this, uh, podcast, who is feeling lonely? Would 

Rob Jackson: mm-hmm. The first thing I would do is invite him to call us at Focus on the Family. We've got trained counselors ready to hear your story, and so you can call 800 a family, 800 a family from 6:00 AM to 8:00 PM Mountain Time, Monday through Friday.[00:30:00] 

If you'd rather, you know, reach out for help online, that's focus on the family.com/get help. So we are a resource. We can hear your story, we can match that to some material that we can send you by email. Sometimes we can make some recommendations for books. We are aware of referral sources that have various ministries like your own, you know, just ways to get you connected.

So that's one of the first things that I would do. 

 Pastor Brad: So to reach out, um, either online through the focus on the family website or mm-hmm. To call That's 

Rob Jackson: right. 

 Pastor Brad: And now is there a cost involved in that? 

Rob Jackson: Never. Never a cost. Always free or the consultation. 

 Pastor Brad: Yep. And so guys, you're not alone and you're certainly not.

You're unique. We all are, but none of us are that unique. Um, these [00:31:00] are things that if men open up and are honest and okay with, uh, their feelings, we've got 'em. You know, I have been lonely numerous times in my life, and there's times where I've been in, amongst a whole bunch of buddies that went to a game, or we went someplace and did something and, um, I was, I was still feeling lonely.

So, 

Rob Jackson: lonely in the crowd is very possible. 

 Pastor Brad: So, is there anything else, are there any other resources or anything that you'd like to let our listeners know about? 

Rob Jackson: Well, I think the, the primary thing I would leave our listeners with is there's this internal and the external. So we can go to a crowd and hopefully enjoy what everyone is enjoying, but still find ourselves lonely.

And so if we're even lonely in the external improvements, it's time to come back to the internal and find that balance. If we talk about a work life [00:32:00] balance between home and our place of employment, we've gotta have a balance between the internal and the external as well. And so I would just keep things simpler.

You know, sometimes we have a complexity bias. The thing that's more complicated would probably be better for me when really you might need to start with the, the nearest nature trail outside your door. 

 Pastor Brad: I what I really hear you saying, I put it in this kind of language, um, and, and tell me if I have this right.

What I really hear you saying is to overcome and work through loneliness. One has to just really get what the Lord let him love you. Let him just, just encounter him. Then encounter yourself with that love, so to speak. Get comfortable in your own skin, and when you're okay with who you are in your own skin because [00:33:00] of Jesus, then you can be comfortable elsewhere.

Rob Jackson: That's right. And then on the occasion you find you're uncomfortable. In spite of all these good intentions, you can go back to the Holy Spirit. 

 Pastor Brad: Yep. 

Rob Jackson: It's a rente and repeat cycle. 

 Pastor Brad: Yeah. You head back for me, um, I have found the most therapeutic thing I can do for myself where I feel like that little boy out on the playground or on the farm.

I grew up on a farm where you're out in the grove and you're just playing and you, you lose track of time and you lo the place where I get that. It is not when I'm reading the Bible, and it's not even when I'm worshiping. Um, it's when I paint, I, I paint as a hobby. Um, I'm like an artist. I, I have trouble using that word, but it's where.

I, I hear the Lord. I'm, I'm [00:34:00] just, I'm just present. And I, the more I do that, the better I am in life, the more I'm comfortable with myself. And I, I so often think that if men could just find that spot, you know? 

Rob Jackson: Yeah. 

 Pastor Brad: Whether it's fishing or it's whatever it is, you know? 

Rob Jackson: I agree. I think that's like a holy hobby because it really opens you up to something more.

 Pastor Brad: Yeah. Well Rob, thank you so much for taking your time and being with me today. I really appreciate it. And um, yeah, we don't live but a state apart from each other, probably, however, um, are you in Colorado? 

Rob Jackson: No, actually I'm in Florida. 

 Pastor Brad: Oh, well, 

Rob Jackson: but focus on the family is headquartered in Florida. However, you're right.

I mean in Colorado Spring. I'm sorry. 

 Pastor Brad: Yeah, yeah, 

Rob Jackson: yeah. I'm confused where, where am I? I'm talking about mindfulness and I know where I'm, 

 Pastor Brad: folks, that [00:35:00] was a good example. No, 

Rob Jackson: right. 

 Pastor Brad: Yeah. Well, but thank you so much for spending time with us. I really appreciate it. And um, hopefully we'll stay in touch and yeah, I think we could be good buddies.

That would be lots of fun. But, um, 

Rob Jackson: I welcome that. 

 Pastor Brad: Thank you so much. Appreciate it. 

Rob Jackson: My pleasure. Thank you, Brad. 

 Pastor Brad: Thank you for listening to this podcast. If you found it to be helpful, please leave a review, especially on iTunes. And, um, if you are suffering from any kind of issues that are emotional or mental health issues, focus on the family as a place to go for help.

Or you can visit Fresh Hope us. Listen, you're not alone and there is hope. There is always hope and there is healing. And it starts at the cross. And so, Lord, I pray for those who are listening today. I pray that you would use this to [00:36:00] reach out to those who need to hear what we've talked about today. Lord, I trust you.

I trust that uh, you have all of those things in, uh, your abilities. And we're just grateful. I wanna tell you to those of you who are listening. God loves you and he loves you because you are who you are. It's not because of what you do, but he just loves to love you and he loves you more than you could imagine.

So live in that. Enjoy it. I pray this in Jesus' name. One last story, Rob. When I was, when I was a little boy, I had a, I had a grandma that I just, she was the most generative person in my life and she just spoiled me. She loved me. I could comb her hair, I could pretend to [00:37:00] be a doctor and cut on her toenails and, 

Rob Jackson: but, 

 Pastor Brad: but one of the things that I recall as a little boy, she died when I was in first grade, and it was very tough, very tough.

But, um, one, one thing I remember is, uh, we were in a rocking chair and I was on her lap and we were just laughing and enjoying life and she was just loving me. And to me, that's what it's like to have the Lord love me now. She and I enjoyed it a little too much, and she rocked a little too hard and we fell over backwards and then she, she wet her pants.

Um, not me, her, um, but, but you know, it's just to enjoy and to enjoy other people. I, I really appreciate this topic. Uh, 

Rob Jackson: I love it too. That's a great story. 

 Pastor Brad: Well, you take care and those of you joining us via the podcast, take care of yourselves [00:38:00] and, uh, listen to the next one. Uh, again, I'm Brad Hayes and this has been another edition of Fresh Hope for Mental Health.

Intro: You've been listening to Fresh Hope for Mental Health. If you have an opportunity, please review, share, and subscribe to the Fresh Hope for Mental Health Podcast on iTunes or on the service that you use. We encourage you to share our podcast on social media with your friends and family. Previous podcasts of Fresh Hope for Mental Health can be found at Fresh Hope for mental health.com iHeartRadio, Stitcher Radio and iTunes Fresh Hope is one of the leading networks of faith-based peer support groups internationally.

For more information about Fresh Hope, go to Fresh hope.us.