Adelle: [00:00:00] Welcome everyone. We are continuing our conversation all about God's design for supernatural oneness from episode four where we talked all about the enemy scheme and the devastating impact of pornography. Today we are joined by Rob Jackson, founder and lead coach at Iceberg Ology for an unfiltered conversation.

Together, he has incredible wisdom of one of the biggest hurdles facing marriages today. This conversation is. Direct continuation of episode four. So if you miss that, go back and watch it after this one. The link is in the description below. Let's dive in with Rob and uncover the path to true sexual integrity and intimacy 

Travis: in dealing with the enemy's scheme and marriage and sex.

You work with couples, doing inten, doing intensives. What do you see is the biggest barrier? To bringing the walls down in the couple's hearts. 

Rob Jackson: Oh, what a great question, Travis. I think it's really not seeing the bigger [00:01:00] picture. You know, it's not about the sex itself, it's about the covenant marriage that they share, uh, husband, wife, and the Lord himself.

And so we wanna look at that marriage metaphor and seek inspiration so that, that love is as it should be, is in its right place rather than something that becomes consumeristic. Even if that's mutual or something that becomes pornographic or something that would be injurious to the other. So by all means, understanding that this marriage is, is maybe more vertical than it is horizontal, looking upward to who Christ is with the church and how that in informs and inspires us as husbands and wives.

Adelle: Mm-hmm. 

Travis: So what you're saying is if, if this relationship were more vertical than horizontal. Then us as spouses could start lowering our walls in the relationship. 

Rob Jackson: That's right. I [00:02:00] think even in conflict resolution, we wanna say it's a wonderful thing that your husband and wife and we can speak to the rights you both have.

In a covenant marriage. You really do. You have rights, and if those rights are violated, that's heartbreaking on so many different levels. It's also important to recognize that while this marriage is sacred. It is temporary. Hmm. Until death do his part. Hmm. But all along this sacred marriage is inside a a, a covenant brother sister relationship in Christ.

That will be forever. And so instead of talking predominantly about my rights as a spouse, I need to be focused on my responsibilities as a sibling in Christ. 

Travis: Oh. 

Rob Jackson: So my spouse is contentment with the Lord. Should be my highest aspiration for her. If that takes the focus off of me 

Travis: putting God as my number one [00:03:00] priority, making him my I, I go to him, he fills me up, then I can come to my spouse.

With a better relationship. 

Rob Jackson: That's right. We're not looking to our spouses to be Christ to us. We're not looking for them to fill every possible need we have. We're not putting those expectations on them. We're just recognizing we're husband and wife and that's something to cherish. And were brother and sister in Christ and that's something to cherish.

But there's more to this than the two of us. It's bigger than what we're experiencing in this marriage. 

Travis: Is that what you mean by covenant versus a contract? The covenant is, is bigger than just the two of us. Is the two of us and God, is that what you're referring to? 

Rob Jackson: Yes. That is a part of it, but I think sometimes a contract, at least in our American sense, it's a transaction.

You do this, I do that. [00:04:00] You know, a one-off a transaction, and I think the covenant is more getting into that agape spirit of love, where I'm gonna love you unconditionally. I'm not gonna be keeping a account of wrongs. You know, we are here in the union with Jesus for still a bigger purpose than what we can see on planet Earth.

Adelle: Do you find that challenging to get couples to that same perspective? 

Rob Jackson: I do. And you know, honestly, Adele, my wife, and I've been married now about 36 years, I believe it is, and it's challenging to get us on that same perspective, 

Travis: right. 

Rob Jackson: Uh, and to stay there. And so I don't want to, uh, I don't want anyone to think listening.

Oh, well, yeah. Rob is just thinking in so many terms that are not. Particularly relevant or reasonable. We've got so many distractions that are working against us. And so to stay focused as a [00:05:00] couple will require each person to stay focused on Christ first. 

Travis: Hmm. 

Rob Jackson: So until each individual has peace with God, I can't expect each individual to have peace with self.

Adelle: Mm-hmm. 

Rob Jackson: And if they're lacking peace with God, they lack peace with self, how in the world are they gonna have peace with each other? 

Adelle: Exactly. 

Travis: Wow. Yeah, 

Rob Jackson: so it's simple, but only because there's grace involved. Everything else about it is pretty, pretty challenging. 

Adelle: That's what we say. It's simple, but not easy.

Rob Jackson: That's right. 

Adelle: Because there's work involved in that. 

Rob Jackson: Well, there is. I mean, I think it is a sanctifying work. 

Adelle: Mm-hmm. 

Rob Jackson: And I believe that God wants both our holiness and our happiness. I don't think we have to place a false dichotomy there, but I certainly believe his holiness is what he's after in a primary way.

And [00:06:00] there's probably nothing more challenging than marriage. We're putting two fallen people together in a holy union. For real. Even when Both. Yeah, even when both are committed to Christ. So that's going to cause some sanctifying friction on occasions and it hopefully gonna make both better for it in the end.

Travis: We call that holy sandpaper. 

Rob Jackson: That works. Yes, sir. 

Travis: Yeah, definitely refining us. Well, I, I had a, a huge issue with pornography in my life and in my marriage, and because of that, I, I could not have a deep level of intimacy. 

Rob Jackson: Mm-hmm. 

Travis: That's the way it occurred to me. And I'm curious from your point of view, what kind of intimacy or lack of intimacy is available for the people who are consuming pornography?

Rob Jackson: Well consuming pornography is toxic at every level, and so I try to help people [00:07:00] think in terms of as image bearers of Christ created by God for his pleasure. We have something like a trinity 'cause we are hearts with minds and spirits. And then in this connectedness and this inseparable quality of heart, mind, body, we do relationships with each other.

And so when we're consuming something that's against the heart of God, it's toxic and you know, you just think about a, a coffee cup. When would you quit drinking? If you saw, I was just kind of, every once in a while putting a drop of two of poison. Your coffee, I mean, you and I both knew it was poison.

When would you quit drinking it? So pornography, uh, things that are not necessarily pornographic, but highly sensual. You know, things that are really kind of accepted today, frankly. Uh. This stuff does not build intimacy. And so we have a false intimacy and here's [00:08:00] what's really happening at, at a lot of levels.

I think when you have a spiritual stronghold in your heart and you begin to think and get obsessed with that, then in time behaviorally you're gonna have a compulsion, and by this time it's gonna come into the brain to be a neurological addiction. And so the whole person is gonna be infected, the whole person is gonna be impacted, and that's gonna also infect and impact the marriage.

So you really can't bring yourself to intimacy when you've bonded with something that's a counterfeit. 

Adelle: Hmm. I like the way you said that. 

Travis: Wow. When you've bonded with something that is a counterfeit. Wow. 

Rob Jackson: Yeah. Everything goes back to bonding and attachment. You know, we think about a child in the womb, then we think about an infant in mom's arms being breastfed, and then we think about a toddler, and then we go all the way up, you know, through the, the life of, of the child at home.

It's all bonding. [00:09:00] And attachment and bonding is something, you know, the parent figure, in this case, God extends to us. Attachment is is what we're doing in return. He's loving us, we're loving back. But if we don't have a healthy sense of bonding and attachment, by the time we become teenagers and adolescents and get exposed to the world and get exposed to sexuality, we're gonna bond to the counterfeit.

And that's gonna make bonding to the real person more, more difficult. 

Adelle: That makes a lot of sense to me. We're learning about attachment theories right now in our school. Mm-hmm. And just how important they are in our adolescents because it absolutely, it determines how we behave as an adult in a relationship.

Rob Jackson: Yeah. I mean, so much of the way we are behaving as adults come from. The bonding and attachment experiences we had even before five years of age. You know, some are saying that more than 85% [00:10:00] of the building blocks of our personalities are in place by age six, and I'm thinking, I don't even have a memory prior to six, but I'm sure that it's, I'm very, I was very impressionable.

And you think about, you know, six years of age as a third of the time you spend in your family's home, someone might say, well, that's just so much psychology. I don't believe it. Well, let's go to 12. Let's say, you know, most of your personality's in place by 12. Who would disagree with that? 

Travis: Hmm. 

Rob Jackson: Okay. Let's go further and say most of your personality is in place by age 18.

I don't think anybody will argue with that. Yeah. And so we're leaving our families of origin with personalities that are in place. And it's not to blame our parents 'cause they had parents and they had parents, and we all have Adam and Eve back there. But it is showing the transmission of generational breakdown that's being exacerbated in modern times.

Travis: So let me ask you this. Let's, let's [00:11:00] say on the flip side, a marriage that does not have pornography, that is in it, that is not having this rectification 

Adelle: and they're God-centered. 

Travis: Yeah. And they're God-centered. Like, what's the results of that? Like what is available in that type of marriage? 

Rob Jackson: Right. I think you know when sexuality is God honoring in his proper place, of course it is spiritually, psychologically, behaviorally, physically, relationally warm, important, healthy healing.

I mean, all these things are true, but because it is not problematic. It sort of stays in its place. It's not always front and center, top of mind all the time. Where the pornography addict is often thinking about pornography or doing pornography much of the time. [00:12:00] And when the wife understands this is her husband's struggle, she's often getting triggered by the same waitress or the same.

Movie because now she's feeling insecure. So the two can be out together, have one trigger, and one is triggered to lust and one is triggered to anxiety. And that makes bonding and attachment very difficult. Whereas if you don't have that and you are healthy enough to be able to relate, and I would add, be able to relate to each other as you age, because no one's body stays the same.

That's not gonna happen. All right. Let's just get it out front. Not gonna happen. That's right. So as things are changing, sometimes faster than you wanna think about, it's gonna come back to, was this only about our sexuality or was this about us, and was this about God? If it's only about our sexuality, there's a time limit on that.

Travis: Mm-hmm. [00:13:00] For real. Yeah. 

Rob Jackson: You know, it's not that sexuality will end as you get older, but it's gonna change. 

Travis: So what I hear you saying is that if they chose not to have this viewpoint, and this is not part of their life and not part of their marriage, there's a deeper level of intimacy that's available for them that they would not have otherwise.

Rob Jackson: Absolutely. So, you know, to state it another way, when a person, male or female gets exposed to pornography and gets involved with pornography and maybe even compulsive with pornography, perhaps not yet, and a, an addiction, but they're moving that direction. All this is happening before they meet and marry their mate, then they're going into that marriage in trouble and the person on the other side may not know that.

But that's gonna be trouble. And then I say this with the greatest spirit of gentleness, but many times when a partner says, well, I didn't have the sex addiction. [00:14:00] This could be husband or wife, but both might have been involved in premarital sexuality. And so that is still of the same essence. It's outside of God's will, even if they married later.

And so there's some. Confessing and some healing and some repenting and some things to move past that wouldn't have been there if we had been able to enjoy God more than our flesh. 

Travis: Okay, so this is great. Let's, let's go down this road. You mentioned there's this confessing and repenting that's available if, if you're talking to the man or the woman right now that is out there and there is so many like.

I know what to do and I keep doing the wrong thing. Like I keep going to pornography. Yeah. What a miserable soul that I am. 

Rob Jackson: Yeah. 

Travis: I don't even know how to stop this, Rob. Right, 

Rob Jackson: right. 

Travis: Like what do I do? 

Rob Jackson: Well, in my [00:15:00] practice I have an iceberg metaphor and I say that we are icebergs and our behaviors are just the tip.

And so there are some drivers underneath those behaviors that are either outright, sinful, or perhaps just as functional or self-defeating or something of that sort. And I'm frequently reminded of, Paul, why do I do this stuff? 

Travis: Yes, 

Rob Jackson: that I don't wanna do and I keep on doing it. So this whole iceberg model is based on Romans seven 15, where Paul states that it concludes that Romans eight 13, where if by the spirit we put to death the deeds of the body, we'll live.

And then we tack on Romans 12, one and two, so that we are talking about being transformed into the image of Christ by the renewing of our minds, but not conformed to the world. And so all of that is the spiritual. Foundation, but because we are spirits who have hearts and we have minds and bodies, we also, I think if we have an [00:16:00] addiction, we're gonna have to go on into the psychology of that and into the behaviorism of that and into the physiology of the neurology.

I share it with people. If you've got. A sexual sin that's not yet an addiction, or let's say you've got a full blown sexual addiction, you can certainly go to Christ one on one through the power of the Spirit and repent. You can walk through that gate of repentance. There's no question in my mind.

There's no need for an intermediary between you and the Lord. 

Travis: Amen. 

Rob Jackson: But if this has become an addiction, you're probably gonna need help with recovery. You don't need help with repentance, but you will need help with recovery. 

Adelle: That's when the spirit is instantly transformed, and yet the mind and the body are on a program that needs to be reprogrammed, rewritten.

Rob Jackson: That's right. 

Adelle: Sanctification. 

Rob Jackson: That's right. Absolutely. And I think it's really from that point forward until the last breath we draw instead of thinking, [00:17:00] uh, kinda like I can go into a school and get a diploma or a degree or this or that, and one day I'll be done with this. 

Travis: Hmm. 

Rob Jackson: You know, we're not gonna be done with sanctification as I understand it, until the Lord calls us home.

And if we've had a stronghold in our life, and if that's even become an addiction, then the vulnerability is likely to be there the rest of our lives. Mm-hmm. Not to be acted out upon, but to be there as a thorn in the flesh. 

Travis: I totally get that. Yes. 

Adelle: One of the things that we have found is, you know, willpower is not enough to stop an addiction to pornography or explicit material, uh, that we have to actually go back and look at what is the enemy written on our hearts?

What are the fears that are driving this? Do I feel unwanted? Do I feel like a failure? Do I feel not good enough? And allow the Lord to heal that. And then there's actually [00:18:00] ability to walk in the spirit and be spirit led. 

Rob Jackson: Yeah. Have you seen that? 

Adelle: Yeah, I think 

Rob Jackson: I have. I think Dr. Stanley used to call it stinking thinking.

Yeah, that's right. And so we have a lot of bad thoughts and what I try to help my clients think through, and it's particularly relevant for marriage, is if we buy into self-esteem, that's gonna be based on our performance and that other person's. And I don't always perform well, and my wife doesn't always approve of me, and vice versa is true, but self worth is based on Christ performing perfectly on her behalf.

Adelle: Hmm. 

Rob Jackson: And the father completely approving of that work on our behalf. And so our worth is as immutable as God himself is. He never changes. He loved us while we were at sinners. Our worth is not gonna decrease or be increased. He simply loves us perfectly, but [00:19:00] the self-esteem, oh wow. That can go up and down like a stock market.

It can crash from day to 

Adelle: day, moment to moment, 

Rob Jackson: day to day, moment to moment, depending on who shows up in the room, who doesn't show up in the room. 

Travis: Right? Yeah. Hey, let me ask you this, uh, I heard, um, um, a podcast, uh, on Dr. Julie Slattery's podcast where they were going over the most recent, uh, Barna group results with pornography.

Yeah. And one of the results was that, um, 50% or around 50% of the people who were struggling with pornography have never spoken about it. It's, it's a, it's a hidden secret, 

Rob Jackson: right? 

Travis: And that the ones that do speak out loud, say, Hey, I, I, I've got an issue, I've got a problem. Those are the ones that start heading toward freedom.

Rob Jackson: Yes. 

Travis: Can you give me some insight of why, why can't I just, I don't want anyone to know, [00:20:00] Rob. I'll just keep it in my own mind and I'll just, I'll work myself to get better then, then I'm, then I'll be okay and no one, you don't need to know about my problems. 

Rob Jackson: Right. Well, Travis, the big piece there is we're leaving the Holy Spirit out because, you know, if the Holy Spirit convinces and convicts me of sin, it is for me to go and not only repent with the help of the spirit, but to start making amends.

Making amends to those that I have sinned against if it's not gonna do further harm. And so clearly in a marriage, there is a reason to go and confess even honey, if you don't know I've been doing this, I have sinned against you and let's, let's process it. I'm sorry, this is gonna be hard for you. It's hard for me.

I'm scared to death, but I have to do it. You know, I have a. I have a holy call to get this right before God and you in our covenant. But here's what I find, and, and this is not a, an [00:21:00] accurate statistic, I can't prove this, you know, empirically, but I believe it feels like 99 people doing pornography out of a hundred, hide it and won out of a hundred.

Confess it. 

Adelle: Wow. 

Rob Jackson: Okay. 

Travis: I 

Rob Jackson: agree. I believe that's pretty close to reality. And so when the 99 have been caught, their hearts are not yet teachable and they're not yet ready to really repent. There are exceptions and the spirit can work quickly in anyone, but so much of the time you get the pushback, you get the gaslighting, you get the stiff arm, the blame shifting in contrast to that one who confesses, he's already done his business with God.

More importantly, God's done his business in him. 

Travis: Yeah. 

Rob Jackson: And so now he's able to go with the Holy Spirit. And so you, you need to know what I'm gonna share with you. [00:22:00] And no matter how it leaves you feeling about me or us, we will do better in the light of truth. 

Travis: Amen. 

Rob Jackson: Than me living and and holding a lie.

Travis: Amen. 

Adelle: The truth is what sets us free. 

Rob Jackson: Yeah. And if we go to the marriage bed with secrets, it's really hard to be free. 

Travis: Mm. 

Rob Jackson: You know, when you go to the marriage bed with a guilty conscience, I might even say it's hard for the brain to relax enough, the brain and the mind to relax enough to be present. 'cause in the back of the mind is, oh, look what I've done.

I wonder if he or she knows what's gonna happen if they find out. 

Adelle: Right? 

Rob Jackson: So we need that, that union to be, um, solid. We needed to be in the light, we needed to be truthful. 

Travis: That was definitely my story, that I had such a guilty [00:23:00] conscience and insomnia, and I was trying to attack my insomnia with all kinds of medications and things like that and reality.

It was, I was not known. 

Rob Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. 

Travis: I did not know myself, nor did my wife know me. 

Rob Jackson: Yeah. Well, and that to the point. That I shared earlier. Until we have peace with God on his terms, we can't begin to have peace with ourself. 

Travis: Mm-hmm. 

Rob Jackson: You know? And I also can't surrender to the Lord what I don't know about me.

Adelle: Oh, that's right. 

Travis: Okay. 

Rob Jackson: And so if I'm not really attuned to who I am, 

Travis: yeah. 

Rob Jackson: My confession is gonna be real limited. So I think it was Jonathan Edwards said that like the two most important kinds of knowledge one has is knowledge of God and knowledge of self. These two go together. We are not God, and God is preeminent in all things, but we have to know him and we need to know ourselves [00:24:00] so that we can begin to walk together in truth, 

Travis: knowledge of God and knowledge of self.

That's huge. 

Rob Jackson: Well, it is, and, and for me, Travis, when the scripture teaches us to renew our minds in Christ, I know that is with the scriptures open, praying that the Holy Spirit will illuminate that and make me more like Jesus. But here's the other part of that. I have to renew my mind in the reality that I'm living.

Adelle: Hmm. 

Rob Jackson: If I am living in a sexual sin, I can be in the scriptures all day long, but if I have sort of compartmentalized that sexual sin and I'm not dealing with that sexual sin, my mind is not gonna be fully renewed. 

Adelle: Right. 

Travis: Yeah. 

Rob Jackson: I might get a compartment renewed. But the whole person is not, and so the duplicity is gonna continue.

Travis: The duplicity. Is that what James is talking about with this double minded that gets, you get tossed around with the waves? 

Rob Jackson: Yes. 

Travis: Oh, [00:25:00] just 

Adelle: that 

Rob Jackson: tossed around with every trigger. 

Travis: Yeah. 

Adelle: Yeah. 

Travis: Okay. 

Adelle: It's almost like the mind is under a, a deep deception. That what, what they're reading off of the scriptures doesn't sink in because of that deception of, of the sin that's being hidden.

Rob Jackson: Yeah. 

Adelle: It's like it blocks it. Yeah. 

Rob Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's true, Adele. I think it goes down to the, to the human heart has a disordered desire from the fall. Fall, and that disordered desire can take. A holy desire for sexuality and matrimony and take it outside of that and destroy everything. And then the mind is also being impacted by the brain.

The mind and the brain are not the same. Mm-hmm. You know, the brain is an organ that just sins and receives. You know, it has stuff going back and forth between the five senses of sight, sound, touch, smell, and taste. The brain doesn't know wisdom. Mm-hmm. The brain reacts. 

Adelle: Mm, 

Rob Jackson: [00:26:00] it's the mind that is to be renewed, and so if the mind is being driven by disordered desires from the human heart and being further deceived by the neurology of the brain.

And it's gonna be very difficult. But if we learn to renew our minds, it's sort of like, then we can tutor the brain. The mind can become the parent of the brain. Otherwise the brain is like a 2-year-old tantruming that says, go get me what I want now. 

Travis: Hmm. 

Adelle: Oh, that's good. I love the way you described that.

Travis: Yeah. Is that what Apostle Paul's talking about? I think it's in, uh. Philippians four versus 11 or 12 or something like that where he says, I have learned how to be content. Is that the learning process? 

Rob Jackson: I think it is. And I think we learned that through messing up and beginning again. It's not a license to mess up.

It's not a license to keep sinning. That's right. [00:27:00] But since we are sinning. Praise me to God, we can continue to learn. Mm-hmm. And I think as that relationship with God is becoming more and more affectionate, it's gonna drive out the lesser desires, it's gonna drive out the smaller affections. 

Travis: Mm-hmm. 

Rob Jackson: You know, some pure and writer spoke of that, how a greater desire will expel the lesser one.

Think you used the word affection, actually, but that's what we're talking about. We're not talking about a behaviorism, we're not talking about a better sin management program. 

Travis: Right, right. 

Rob Jackson: Yeah. We're talking about actually falling in love with, with God and being delighted to be known by him. And then on those moments that we're not particularly delighted and we're not particularly thinking in those better ways to be remembering when it, when we really messed up and how you came to save us.

Travis: Amen. 

Rob Jackson: You know, really, really reaching down into our lives, [00:28:00] loving us. Not because we deserved it 

Travis: Mm, 

Rob Jackson: but because he chose to. So if we can get that affection, if we can get those desires reordered in the human heart. There's a better spiritual, psychological, behavioral, physical immunity for the rest of the world.

Travis: Yes. That's 

Adelle: amazing. 

Travis: Then I'm gonna have, like the Apostle Paul talks about second Corinthians, uh, seven verses nine through 11. I have a godly sorrow versus a worldly sorrow. Mm-hmm. Like I have one that leads to, to life and salvation versus a worldly sorrow leads me to death. 

Rob Jackson: Well see. If you confront me and I've not yet confessed, then you're upset with me and I have a worldly sorrow.

But if I have already been convinced and convicted by the Holy Spirit, that's a godly sorrow. 

Travis: Amen 

Rob Jackson: for that. Godly sorrow will [00:29:00] go on the offense. Instead of just playing defense, it'll move out. It will start running with the ball, if you will, of righteousness so that things can be made Right. 

Travis: Awesome.

Thank you for sharing that. One last question and then after that I would love for you to share, um, you know, anything that you want to share with the audience of how they can find you, how they can get more resources, how they can come to any of your intensives or, or get help from you. Last question.

Rob Jackson: Thank you. 

Travis: Is how in, how important is identity? 

Rob Jackson: Correctly understood. Identity is at the core of everything, is at the core of knowing who we are in relationship to God, in relationship to ourself, in relationship to others is at the core of being content with our limitations. You know, I'd like to be six, one or two like my son.

I used to be five eight. [00:30:00] I'm getting shorter as I grow, as I grow old. You know, it's accepting limitations and not in a way of, of giving up, but in a way that says, you know, God doesn't make mistakes. I can trust you with everything from my height to my aging, to my history, and to my future. And so to me it's just um, God calling us to calling us to himself and that is where identity becomes so important, knowing that I am His and then we can reflect 'cause he's mine.

Travis: Amen. Amen. Alright, people are going to, going to want to reach out to you. You have been on our expert corner in multiple different episodes now. How can they reach you? What? What do you provide? 

Rob Jackson: Yeah, they can always go to the website, iceberg ology. Think theology or [00:31:00] psychology, but it's iceberg ology.com.

Really pretty easy. That's because of the iceberg model that I share. They can learn more about that. They can also call me. The number is (719) 440-4893. Be happy to interact with anyone about questions or concerns, and thank you for the opportunity. 

Travis: Hmm, that's amazing. And you have a book coming out. 

Rob Jackson: I do, we hope in the fall of next year.

Uh, the book is entitled When Grace Meets Conviction, and it is gonna be for parents and grandparents who have children in that LGBT world and they're trying to find ways to keep their relationship while keeping their, their faith as well. Amen. 

Travis: Praise God 

Adelle: for that. 

Travis: Praise God for that. Praise God for you.

Thank you, Rob, for being here. Thank you for the ministry that you're providing and the Kingdom of God. And I just pray a blessing over you, over your ministry and over your family, in Jesus' name. 

Rob Jackson: I really appreciate that. And Travis and Adele, it's been wonderful to join you. [00:32:00] Thank you for this. 

Travis: Always been an honor.