Luann Crane: [00:00:00] Welcome to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. I'm Luann Crane here with Ryan Dobson. Our host is psychologist and bestselling author Dr. James Dobson. And Ryan, uh, our program today is all about finding freedom from a particular sin that's just insidious. 

Ryan Dobson: During this time together, we'll be dealing with a topic of pornography.

So we want to tell parents right off the bat to make sure there aren't any little ears around. Mm-hmm. Uh, but Luann, you're right. There is. So much secret shame tied to this issue, but we're here to let people know they don't have to live in that bondage and they can be free. 

Luann Crane: Mm-hmm. You know, Ryan, it makes me think of the, uh, scripture in Hebrews 12 that says, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles.

Ryan Dobson: Well, Luanne, we don't have to go search for this sin. Mm-hmm. I mean, hardcore pornography is as close to us as our smartphone and laptops. Uh, the average age of first exposure to pornography these days is 11. And by age [00:01:00] 15, 92% of boys have seen a copy of Playboy Magazine. And as we're gonna hear today, this stuff is highly addictive.

Luann Crane: It is chilling to hear those numbers. Ryan. Um, I know your dad's heartbreaks too, at how insidious this material is and how it's destroying our families. That is precisely why we must address it today, and we're gonna do so with the help of two experts on the topic. Joanne Condi and Rob Jackson. 

Ryan Dobson: Joanne is a licensed.

Professional counselor and a registered nurse. She's been in private practice and on the staff of focus on the family since 1998. She's also appeared on many different radio programs and has spoken at church retreats and workshops on the topics of sex addiction and pornography use. Uh, she lives here in Colorado Springs with her husband Dave 

Luann Crane: and Rob Jackson has been a licensed professional counselor since 1986 and he's the president of Christian Council International.

He and his wife Renee, have been married since 1987 and they have two teenagers. 

Ryan Dobson: We're gonna pick up the conversation now. Right after my dad asked Joanne about the throngs of hurting people, she has [00:02:00] helped in person and on the phone in her work as a counselor Here. Now on this family talk broadcast is Mrs.

Joanne Condi. 

Joann Condie: I get those calls, Dr. Dobson. It just breaks my heart and in the six years that I've been here, I see that this problem is just increasing exponentially. It's not plateauing, it's just increasing faster than we can keep up with it. 

Dr. James Dobson: You told me earlier in my office that, uh, of the first seven calls you got today?

Joann Condie: Yes. 

Dr. James Dobson: How many of 'em were on this 

Joann Condie: subject? Four of them. Four of them related to pornography. 

Dr. James Dobson: Uh, 

Joann Condie: and for instance, I got a mother and she was just devastated. She found out that last night, um, she got onto the internet and realized that her 11-year-old son had been using the pornography on the internet. And, uh, in speaking with him, the story unfolded that it was the 11-year-old neighbor boy that came over and they had been doing this for quite some time.

Then they pulled in the 9-year-old son. And so the three of them were doing this. And if that wasn't heart wrenching and heartbreaking enough, she [00:03:00] had to choke out the words that the 11-year-old neighbor boy, after the three of them were online with the pornography, he was molesting her nine-year-old son.

Dr. James Dobson: Oh my. And that's being played out all across North America today. 

Joann Condie: Absolutely. The broken hearts. The broken lives, the marriages. The jobs that are lost, it continues and we need to do something about it. 

Dr. James Dobson: Absolutely. And um, you know, I've, I've been just almost a, um, person obsessed with the idea of getting it across to parents how dangerous this is, because a boy, especially in early, early adolescence like that, um, even more so at 12 or 13 years of age when the sexuality.

Obvious life just suddenly explodes. Mm-hmm. Uh, to get addicted to this stuff is often to be held captive to it for life if something isn't done to break that pattern. Absolutely. And I mean, it is more addictive than cocaine. [00:04:00] You know, you might take cocaine once and not get addicted. You get a 13-year-old who ex is exposed to something that really moves him.

You know, it is stamped into the brain by epinephrine, a hormone, and it stays there and he is a victim from that point on. And that's one of the things we want to talk about. Um, Rob Jackson is, uh, also with us. He's a, a state licensed counselor here in Colorado Springs and deals, uh, with this issue frequently, can you make a difference?

Rob Jackson: We believe Jesus Christ can, we're absolutely sure of his sufficiency and we understand how to treat this, and there are solutions that can be transferable. 

Dr. James Dobson: Hmm. Talk about what Joanne and I were, uh, discussing of the ubiquitous nature of, uh, pornography. Uh, you're seeing evidence of that everywhere, aren't you?

Rob Jackson: It is truly everywhere. You know, what we find are people who will, for example, say, I think I'll marry this, will take care of the problem that I have [00:05:00] with lust. They'll even quote Paul better to marry. Then to burn with lost and they get married. Finding that the sexuality within marriage is not enough.

The problem for the sex addict is there'll never be enough sex. 

Dr. James Dobson: Yeah. 

Rob Jackson: And so many times they were exposed at the median ages of 11 to 13. If they're older, 

Dr. James Dobson: like I 

Rob Jackson: was older guys talking 

Dr. James Dobson: about. 

Rob Jackson: But now with the internet, that addictive potential you were talking about is so much faster than it was for men exposed to a magazine.

Yes. Or to men exposed to a video. 

Dr. James Dobson: Yeah. 

Joann Condie: And Dr. Doon, what you were saying about the imprint on the brain, I just want people, parents, especially to know how, um, damaging that can be. I'm working with a young pastor and he was six years old and his. Father was a pastor and they had a missionary stay overnight, and the mother asked the young boy the next morning to empty the wastebasket and there was a pornography in that waste basket.

And this pastor just said, with just tears on his face, [00:06:00] he said, when I saw the centerfold of that magazine. He said, I knew that I would forever be in love with those pictures. Mm-hmm. And he's continued on and now of course, on the internet, and he says, I am not buying or using more and more pornography.

There's enough damage there. That will keep me going for a lifetime. 

Dr. James Dobson: Parents, are you listening today? Do you hear this? Does this just sound like the overreaction of some people who are in this profession, or do you believe it? Your children who are at home, do you realize how at risk they are? 

Rob Jackson: And we're understanding today with neurological pediatrics that children under the age of 14.

Or having their brains mapped very quickly. And what we're talking about is a need to, to shelter our children from sex and violence, at least for the first 14 years of life, because that's when the filters are being built within their thinking [00:07:00] process. And if they get exposed before 14, what they're exposed to becomes the filter.

Now they begin to see people as sexual objects, not spiritual beings. And we might also add, you know, we deal with people who are highly skilled, highly functioning individuals. You would be pleased to sit next to these people in your local church. 

Dr. James Dobson: Now, this is not someone under a bridge someplace.

Rob Jackson: Absolutely not. I mean, you would be, you know, coaching baseball together and your sons, these are your, your, your basic families. Dr. Dobson, I think, you know, basically internet pornography is so available. That is easier for the person who is well intended to fall. The well intending person may not initially go out to the bar or the strip club or the other places.

Their own shame of getting caught might prevent that, but sitting in the privacy of their home or their office, or two or three clicks away from stuff that could not even occur. Yeah. In a [00:08:00] building three blocks away. 

Dr. James Dobson: Yeah. And Rob, it's not just men. 

Rob Jackson: No. That's one of the most important messages we need to get out.

This is not a men's issues only. We have women who are struggling just as much with pornography. There can be different gateways perhaps. The traditional man gets involved because of the visual lost and objectification. The typical woman may get into it by way of chat rooms and things that appear more relational.

Dr. Dobson, our young women, are just as much, uh, vulnerable as our young sons are. 

Dr. James Dobson: The pornographers are smart, and they also design this stuff for women. 

Rob Jackson: Well, they're incredibly smart because we see that not just in hardcore pornography on the internet. But we see that in all the Fifth Avenue marketing that's found in, in a number of clothing stores through the mannequins and through the photographs and posters that are available.

Dr. James Dobson: Well, there's so many [00:09:00] elements to this. Where do we start? And our time is really getting away, but let's, let's focus on the children first. 

Rob Jackson: What we often miss in the Prevention for Children is, first of all, if they're in an intimate home where there's a lot of connection. High touch. They're not gonna be as vulnerable for what we're calling an intimacy disorder that presents itself with pornography.

I also think Dr. Dobson, the second thing is, you know, the Bible is full of information on sexuality. It begins with the marriage of a man and woman in the book of Genesis. It ends with the marriage of Christ and the church, and in between we have the Song of Solomon and so much else. And so I would love to see us teach our children what's right about sex before they get exposed to the hardcore pornography.

Joann Condie: God designed this so that mom and dad would be a part of this. We want to use those teachable moments. It says in Deuteronomy that we want to be using those teachable moments with our children at very young ages. 

Dr. James Dobson: You talked earlier today about the [00:10:00] mother that called and the tragedy had just occurred last night.

Yes. As we speak, uh, that involved, uh, I think two 11 year olds and eventually a 9-year-old who was being abused. Uh, how do you sit down and talk to them? About what happened and about, well, what did you say to this mother? What advice did you give 

her? 

Joann Condie: Well, first of all, we have to have the children safe, and so that is a first priority, that there's not access.

We know, of course, that all three of these children have been harmed. This is not about one boy being bad. He himself, whoever is the perpetrator, he is also a victim. So it's victims who are victimizing others. And so we got to get help for these kids. We gotta get 'em off the. Pornography sites, obviously, but we need to get to counseling.

We need to have some treatment and healing can happen if parents are vigilant and get to the children quickly and get the right appropriate kind. Christian counseling healing can happen. If they say we're gonna avoid it, if we don't talk about it [00:11:00] then, then it's not a problem. Then in fact, it is a problem.

And then those are the folks that show up in our private practice. 10, 15 years later, 

Dr. James Dobson: pornography is addictive and progressive. 

Rob Jackson: Absolutely. 

Dr. James Dobson: Absolutely. Uh, what is exciting today will not be enough tomorrow. That's right. It moves you, it walks you toward perversion, uh, and, uh, and toward harder and more violent and more, uh, uh, gross, uh, material.

That's why it looks like something you can play with. It looks like that you could bring it into your marriage and get away with it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We'll spice it up a little bit. We need a little excitement in our marriage and then it begins to take over. It's a cancer, I tell you. It, it. Absolutely destroys the soul.

And, uh, and how do people get into chop pornography? Why is there so much pedophilia today? Well, they start out when they're 13. Uh, seeing images of cheerleader type girls in, [00:12:00] in nudity or, or for girls, uh, the opposite. And then it walks them through all of those, um, those things that can be done and seen anatomically.

Then you come to a little firewall. You know, where, uh, you've seen everything there is conceived, then what? And a certain number of people jump that, uh, firewall and, uh, go on to perversions and child pornography is one of them. 

Rob Jackson: This is precisely one of the worst dangers associated with internet pornography.

It takes a person and allows him to discover new sexual interest. Yeah, not what he has been brought up in his particular culture, but what is worldwide, what has been in the dark alleys. And so it's really creating new and more perverse appetites. 

Dr. James Dobson: Ah, Joanne, uh, you, uh, talked to many spouses. Yes, who call yes, and they're broken because their marriage [00:13:00] is broken and they don't know what to do if they're women especially, they're really in a spot, aren't they?

Because their husbands to whom they have a sexual allegiance and responsibility are asking them to do things that they know are wrong. A And what do you tell 'em? 

Joann Condie: Well, these women call and they're just, um, just in tears because they wanna love their husbands. And so often they think if perhaps they did more in the bedroom.

And they're sometimes told that by their, by their spouses, 

Dr. James Dobson: it's your fault I'm having to 

Joann Condie: turn this, it's to this fault. Yes. And so if, uh. Perhaps they got, uh, some new negligence, you know, if they lost a few pounds, if they gained a few pounds, if they changed their hair color. And these women are desperately trying to somehow fill their needs and they don't understand that this pornography addiction is not about them.

It's not about those externals. And they recognize that there is brokenness within his pornography is 

a 

Joann Condie: symptom of it's only a symptom. That's 

Dr. James Dobson: right. Yeah. Uh, Rob, what do [00:14:00] you say to. Uh, a Christian woman who says to you, um, you know, my husband is a good man and I'm, I'm really trying to be a good wife to him.

Uh, but he wants to bring pornographic videos, uh, into our bedroom. And, uh, I'm in a state of severe conflict. What do I do? I do I resist? Do I refuse? 

Rob Jackson: Well, that question always breaks my heart because I know that the woman is in tremendous despair to have raised the question. And so we start talking about, this is the husband in Ephesians five.

Who should be loving you as Christ loved the church and Christ was always serving the church. Sacrificially never exploiting the church. And you need to realize that if your husband asks you to bring pornography in the bedroom or do something that is, is against your wishes, that is exploitation. Yeah, obviously the husband who's inviting you to do this or requiring you, he's already been unfaithful in his marriage to Christ.

If there is a [00:15:00] marriage there, and I will say to that wife, your marriage to Christ is always first. You honor him and you need to say no. Speak that truth in love, much like your book. Uh, love must be Tough. There is a time to say absolutely not. 

Dr. James Dobson: I have dealt with this in that book. Love must be Tough and uh, and have given that advice and there is a time.

Uh, for a spouse to say, I can't go with you there. 

Rob Jackson: That's right. 

Dr. James Dobson: Yeah. You know, and not necessarily, and I'm really not seeking to break up the marriage or suggest they call a a lawyer. I am saying that, uh, that you pull back and you say it just isn't going to work that way. 

Rob Jackson: Well, one of the most important, ironic things, and, and this is true, I think the majority of the time, most of the men I work with.

They did not respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. And I always know that when a man responds to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, the prognosis for healing is 

Dr. James Dobson: much better. 

Rob Jackson: Is so much better. Yeah. [00:16:00] Okay. And the motivation for recovery, which is equal to sanctification is so much better. Yeah. And what is such a joy is to see people who get it and then they become lighthouses for others in need of help.

My ministry is largely about comforting others with the comfort I've received. And that's what I find people securing in themselves. They are comforted, and then that transfers into their communities. 

Dr. James Dobson: Hmm. 

Joann Condie: Well, and it's just as, as Rob was saying, that when that transformation happens on the inside, it's no longer about not doing internet pornography.

It's a hunger, a hunger that we have for God. And then it's a hunger for that. Intimacy with their spouse. And one of the things that we do in our therapy is to show them that if, to get a taste of what that, what that intimacy is with their spouse to be connected mind and spirit and body. And once they have that, they become the best campaigners of all because [00:17:00] they never want to lose that connectedness.

Dr. James Dobson: Yeah. But the healing and the therapy is not something that you can do to a person. They, they have to commit to it and work at it, don't they? 

Rob Jackson: That's absolutely right. 

We 

Dr. James Dobson: ask. We can't impose that on anybody. 

Rob Jackson: We ask the person to take full ownership of his or her issue. And so much of the time, Joanne and I, and our therapy particularly, we'll see not only the the addicted spouse, but we'll see their partner.

So we'll treat it as a family systems issue and not just look at the immediate marriage, but go back to the family of origin. And see how that intimacy disorder has played itself out so many times. 

Dr. James Dobson: Uh, we're talking to people who are crying right now. You know, I have tears in my eyes because I've seen so much pain at this point.

In dealing with people, we're talking people who are so burdened with guilt that they feel like they cannot take another step. 

Rob Jackson: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. James Dobson: That's right. So they don't wanna go to church on Sunday. That's right. Because when they're there, they think about [00:18:00] this. 

Joann Condie: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. James Dobson: And it interferes with their relationship with their wives.

Not only when they get ready to go to bed, but throughout the day and, and they afraid their children are gonna find it. In the house. There's so many fears associated with this and they've heard something today that's touched their hearts and um, maybe, maybe they've seen a ray of hope. What do you say to 'em?

Joann Condie: I want them to be encouraged today that there is help. There is hope, there is healing, not just because of what we have said, not just because of what this panel has said today, but because of what God can do in your life. Mm-hmm. And we just want you to know that no matter how far you've slidden back, or no matter how many times you've tried again and again, there is treatment, there's something that can be done about this.

Rob Jackson: Mm-hmm. That's right. You know, before the broadcast you prayed and you mentioned spiritual warfare and the difficulty of knowing how to talk about it. I also believe God is calling Christians to [00:19:00] himself for a full and complete recovery. I honestly believe he wants the bride of Christ to be healthy, to be attractive, to be whole, and I think we are in a desperate age of warfare specific to sexuality.

There's no doubt in my mind, it's worse than it's ever been, and there's no doubt in my mind that unless the Lord intervenes, it'll be worse a year from now. Than it has been today, but God is more. 

Dr. James Dobson: Hmm. 

Rob Jackson: And he is so active on behalf of his church. 

Dr. James Dobson: There is hope. 

Rob Jackson: There is hope. His efficiency of Christ is what I love to teach, and that's the intimacy that cures, addictions.

Joann Condie: All of the parameters that you described as far as being so careful with the. Computer and being careful when you go to the motel room. All of those things are important and they have to be done. It goes without saying. But we don't wanna let the, have the listeners be left with the idea that if they do all of that, that therefore now everything is gonna be okay.

That's, um, [00:20:00] somewhat of a. Sin management approach. We're just gonna stop the bad behavior that needs to be done. But there's far more to it than that because behind this type of addiction, we know also that there is damage and distortions. Of their thinking, and you have to address the thinking that's behind the behavior.

And then underneath that, thinking, there are damaged emotions. If those are ignored, neglected, if the therapist is not addressing that, then only part of the battle has been done. Yeah. And then beneath all of that is a strong spiritual component, and that has to be addressed too. So you'll hear us say over and over again, you gotta address the behavior and the mind, which is composed of the thoughts and the emotions.

And the spiritual part. Don't just take one and fix the behavior. You know, Jesus talked about that in scripture. He talked to the Pharisees, those whitewash gravestones, they're polished on the outside sex addicts and, and their spouses will have a very good public image. And the darker and more [00:21:00] secret and more awful, their private life is the more polished the exterior is.

So we want to integrate. That double life. And we wanna help them not only change the behavior, but also change the thinking and the damaged emotions behind that. And then the spiritual component, which is most important. 

Dr. James Dobson: Many of our listeners know that, uh, I interviewed Ted Bundy just 17 hours before he was executed in the Florida State Prison.

And, uh, he of course, uh, murdered. Uh, 28 women and girls, and some people say closer to a hundred. And uh, that's one of the things that he said to me. I had this, uh, small walled off corner of my mind that no one got into. Yeah, no one knew was there and I was essentially normal through the rest of my life.

People had no idea. His own mother denied two, uh, right to the end, that he was guilty because she couldn't [00:22:00] believe it, and the people who knew him couldn't believe it. He went to law school. He had this wonderful exterior, but there was this secret. World that was vicious down there and it not, doesn't always take that turn with murder and sad of masochism and things of that nature, but it often has that component of something that only I know about.

That's right. That's right. You gotta integrate that with the rest of the personality. 

Rob Jackson: This reminds me of a pastor in a men's workshop, and he was a winsome articulate man. You would've looked at him and never dreamed he had any problem with internet pornography. But the story is worse. Not only did he involve himself with an internet pornography, he began to search on those sites that involved child pornography.

Yes, he had none of the high watermarks, if you will, of a life that was gonna be vulnerable to pedophilia. There was nothing there. I looked at the clinician and couldn't find it. What was, [00:23:00] there was exposure. Over time to child pornography that began to just cut a groove in this man's body, mind, and spirit.

This is today's leprosy. You know, the, the religious folk 2000 years ago would not deal with the leper, and Jesus came in and would touch and heal the leprosy. We're gonna have to have Christians. Thinking more of those who are wounded than they think of themselves and are gonna have to run to the fields where people are dying of this type of leprosy.

Dr. James Dobson: Well, the theme words has not been condemnation or guilt. It has been HOPE Hope. 

Rob Jackson: Yes, 

Dr. James Dobson: there is hope. But you gotta reach for it and God will meet you there. 

Rob Jackson: Well, it's his kindness. It leads to our repentance. 

Dr. James Dobson: Yeah. 

Rob Jackson: It's not the prohibitions, not the consequences. It's his kindness.

Ryan Dobson: I think that's the [00:24:00] perfect place to end this family talk broadcast with our guests, licensed professional counselors, Joanne Condi and Rob Jackson. And the beautiful thing, Luann is, uh, that kindness and that hope is available for. Everyone today, 

Luann Crane: for those of you who are struggling with an addiction to pornography, I urge you to reach out to us here at Family Talk.

It would truly be an honor to talk with you and pray with you and help start you on the road to recovery, uh, us. Especially if you've never accepted the forgiveness that Jesus Christ offers. And yes, that forgiveness truly extends to the wretched depths of pornography. That's right. Please contact us by calling 8 7 7 7 3 2 6 8 2 5.

Again, 8 7 7 7 3 2 6 8 2 5. 

Ryan Dobson: And as our experts told us today, if pornography is something you struggle with, really you need professional help to overcome this highly addictive habit. It's virtually impossible to kick this on your own. Uh, and we wanna help connect you [00:25:00] with a Christian counselor in your area who can help you start this process.

Uh, you can find [email protected]. Or one last time our number 8 7, 7. Seven three two six eight two five 

Luann Crane: and [email protected] you will find a couple of resources that we highly recommend for getting help on this topic, two books. The first one is called Breaking Free Understanding Sexual Addiction and the Healing Power of Jesus and the Second Family Survival in an X-Rated World.

Again, you can request both of [email protected]. 

Ryan Dobson: We hope this program today has been a help to you and your family. Have a great weekend and we'll see you right back here on Monday when we'll pay tribute to the late and great Zig Ziglar. That's next time on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.

Music: Family Talk is not affiliated with Focus on the Family.